Ivan Zhao

Co-founder and CEO of Notion

Mentions

Appeared in

Discussed in

Key positions and views

The software industry is shifting from a decade of unbundling SaaS tools back to bundled, all-in-one platforms, a trend accelerated by AI and macroeconomic pressures.

The ultimate goal of AI in knowledge work is to create agents that can perform tasks autonomously, which requires consolidating fragmented tools and data contexts into a single system like Notion.

Building a company should prioritize high "talent density" and revenue per employee over headcount. Key hires like the first salesperson or product manager should be delayed until the business has proven significant organic traction.

Software products are subject to entropy and naturally degrade over time. Maintaining a high level of product craft is a constant battle that must be balanced with business utility, as aiming for perfection can be counterproductive.

The advent of capable large language models is as revolutionary as the invention of personal computing, fundamentally changing the nature of SaaS from selling tools to selling automated work itself.

Podcast consensus on Zhao

Points of consensus

▶Ivan Zhao consistently frames Notion's long-term strategy as the consolidation of disparate knowledge work tools into a single platform, believing this is a prerequisite for building effective AI agents.Apr 2026

▶Across sources, Zhao emphasizes that AI represents a fundamental paradigm shift for the software industry, moving from selling tools that assist humans to selling AI systems that perform the work itself.Apr 2026

▶Zhao characterizes Notion's early years (2013-2017) as a period of intense struggle, marked by a failure to find product-market fit, a full team layoff down to the two co-founders, and a complete codebase restart.Apr 2026

▶He advocates for a lean, capital-efficient approach to company building, highlighting Notion's profitability, its delay in hiring its first salesperson until after $10M ARR, and its focus on "talent density" over raw headcount.Apr 2026

Points of debate

▶Zhao champions high product craft, citing Linear as an 8.5/10, yet pragmatically rates his own product a 6.5-7/10, arguing that pushing for perfection would negatively impact business utility and growth.Apr 2026

▶He describes building AI as an organic, probabilistic process akin to "brewing beer," which contrasts with the rapid, deterministic development cycle where his team built and shipped Notion's first AI product in under two months after getting GPT-4 access.Apr 2026

▶Zhao's vision is for AI agents to automatically assemble custom software, but he acknowledges that Notion's own attempt at this 18 months ago failed due to immature models and that the required consolidation of tools remains a major industry-wide obstacle.

▶There is a tension between Notion's origin as a tool for non-developers to create their own software and its successful pivot to a more general productivity tool, which Zhao calls a "sugar coat" for the underlying, more ambitious vision.Apr 2026

Key themes

▶The 'Lost Years' and Corporate ResilienceApr 2026

Zhao frequently recounts Notion's early struggles, including a four-year search for product-market fit, laying off the entire team, moving to Japan to save money, and a near-catastrophic database failure during the pandemic. This narrative emphasizes perseverance and the ability to survive existential threats through focused engineering and lean operations.

This history of resilience suggests a corporate culture that is likely well-prepared for market volatility and technical crises, prioritizing survival and long-term vision over short-term growth at all costs.

▶AI-Driven Rebundling of SaaSApr 2026

Zhao posits that the software market is at the end of an "unbundling" cycle and is now shifting back toward consolidated platforms, with AI as the catalyst. He argues that for AI agents to perform complex knowledge work, they need access to unified data and tools, which is the strategic problem Notion aims to solve.

This positions Notion not just as a competitor to individual productivity apps, but as a foundational layer for the next generation of AI-native work, making its platform's breadth a key strategic asset.

▶Pragmatic Philosophy of Product CraftApr 2026

Zhao holds a nuanced view on product development, acknowledging that software naturally degrades over time due to entropy. He rates his own product a 7/10 for craft, believing that striving for a perfect 10 would be detrimental to the business and its utility, indicating a conscious trade-off between perfection and practical value.

Investors should note that while Notion values design, its leadership prioritizes business metrics and broad utility over achieving the highest possible level of aesthetic or engineering purity, which could accelerate market expansion.

▶The Shift from Selling Tools to Selling WorkApr 2026

According to Zhao, the most significant impact of AI is the transition of SaaS companies from being tool providers to being work providers. He illustrates this with his co-founder managing AI coding agents instead of writing code himself, framing Notion's future as a platform that delivers automated outcomes, not just a workspace.

This signals a fundamental business model evolution. Analysts should evaluate Notion's ability to price its services based on outcomes and work performed by AI, rather than traditional per-seat licensing.

Source episodes

Sentiment over time

Not enough data for timeline

Changes over time

2013

Founds Notion, beginning what he calls the "lost years" of struggling to find product-market fit with an initial concept for a developer tool.

Pre-2018

Experiences a major setback, laying off the entire team to become a two-person company. He and co-founder Simon Last move to Japan to lower costs and restart the codebase after a failed bet on an unstable technology.

COVID-19 Pandemic

Faces an existential technical crisis as Notion's single database instance nears capacity. The company halts all feature development to assign nearly every engineer to implement database sharding, narrowly avoiding a total service shutdown.

Post-$10M ARR

Crosses a significant business milestone by hiring the company's first salesperson only after achieving substantial organic revenue growth.

Late 2022

Gains early access to GPT-4, leading to a rapid, week-and-a-half development sprint that resulted in the launch of Notion's first AI product a month before the public release of ChatGPT.

Present

Focuses on expanding Notion's product suite into billion-user categories like email and calendar, while also expanding its enterprise sales footprint with new offices in Europe.

Suggested prompts

How does Ivan Zhao's philosophy of "talent density" and delayed hiring for specialized roles impact Notion's ability to compete with established enterprise giants like Microsoft and Google? &nearr;Given Zhao's view on software entropy, what specific strategies is Notion employing to prevent its own all-in-one platform from becoming bloated and complex like the Microsoft Word example he cites? &nearr;Zhao describes a tension between product craft and business utility. How might this trade-off manifest as Notion expands into more commoditized markets like email and calendars? &nearr;If AI agents require consolidated context to be effective, how does Notion's strategy of integrating with external stacks (Google, Microsoft, Atlassian) align with or contradict its core value proposition of being the single, unified workspace? &nearr;

Key concepts

AI Strategy 2 ep Company Building & Culture 2 ep Early Company Struggles 1 ep SaaS Market Trends 1 ep Product Philosophy 1 ep Technical Architecture & Scaling 1 ep Business Model & Growth 1 ep Future of Work 1 ep

Notable quotes

“Like a SaaS cloud software company is transitioning from selling tools to facilitate work to providing the work itself.”

Ivan Zhao · How Notion Reimagined Productivity Tools | Ivan Zhao

“we decided to lay off everybody. At that time, Notion was five people. We lay off everybody back to me and Simon, two people.”

Ivan Zhao · Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal

“there's a doomsday clock that when we're gonna truly run out of this space to store everything in Notion and Notion got completely shut down.”

Ivan Zhao · Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal

“Simon and I were friends with OpenAI folks and we got early access to GPT-4 and that was late 2022 and when we saw it, it's like the world would be very different... we actually locked ourselves into a hotel room in Mexico and for a week and a half blew the first version of the AI product. And we actually launched the month before ChatGPT happened.”

Ivan Zhao · How Notion Reimagined Productivity Tools | Ivan Zhao

Report last updated: Apr 21, 2026

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